Community Forums
Forum Index FAQFAQ SearchSearch MemberlistMemberlist UsergroupsUsergroups ProfileProfile Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages Log inLog in RegisterRegister
Court
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    S&F's Forum Index -> Court/Legal Issues
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
tim2006
Member
Member


Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 201

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:14 am    Post subject: Court Reply with quote

Hi, I hope its ok if I post here. I think its a really good idea to have these sections about different things so you can see what you are going to read about and not have any nasty surprises when you come to a post. Also I dont think I was the first person ever to do something new so this is my first time to be first at something even if it s just opening a new topic.

i wanted to say something about court and the legal system and I suppose its sort of a reply to trying 2 survive well that was the post that made me think of it.

well what I wanted to say is that when you go to court it isnt about what someone did to you anymore its about the goverment of your country finding out if someone broke their law and punishing them if they did. I know its a bit difficult to understand and Im not very good at explaining. In England if you go to court your case is called THE CROWN v YOUR NAME and thats because its the goverment and they call it the crown because the Queen is the head of the goverment in England thats against you. It isnt the person you hurt against you because the goverment isnt interested in the person who got hurt the goverment is interested if you broke the law of the goverment. The law is the important thing not the person who got hurt even if the law is about not hurting people.You have to be punished for breaking the law of the goverment and the not hurting someone is sort of why the law is there but it isnt the point of the court case. Its like THE LAW is a whole seperat thing that is different from what you actually did.

Thats sort of why it doesnt matter to the court about what the victim wants to say because as far as the court is concerned you committed a crime against the goverment by breaking its law and they dont mind about the victim. I mean if he pleaded guilty. its sort of how the law works and that the courts are to see if you broke the law and give you the punishment that goes with that lawbreaking and thats how the goverment makes the country run not to look after the victim and give them revenge.

The court isnt supposed to take into account how the victim feels about it I mean for sentencing because the sentence isnt supposed to be revenge for the victim its the punishment for breaking the law of the goverment and if all the victims decided what the sentence would be then I suppose everyone who was found guilty would always be in prison for ever or something like that.

T2S I'm really sorry that your brother didnt really get a proper prison sentence or whatever and that you feel he got off that must be really hard for you and I do understand that. i hope it doesnt sound like I agree with him or anything because I dont. I was just sort of trying to show how it works for the goverment they have guidelines for sentencing and there are some things they have to take into account. And Im sorry you didnt feel like you won that he pleaded guilty but you did really because he admitted that he did it and not very many criminals do that and that will be against him forever. Its not like he can ever say well I was found guilty but i didnt actually do it what is what most people say I mean VPs because he did say that he did do it.

Im sorry this isnt very clear but I hope its a bit helpful. it isnt very easy for me to talk about all this. I am trying to be supportive and evrything Im just not very good at it

Tim
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
avalon140
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 397
Location: washington state ( north of seattle )

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To start with I do agree with what you have said...sort of...I do agree that when the person who has broken the law goes to court that the punishment is for breaking the law not for say hurting me. Here it is the state against the person who wronged...same thing because it is the states rule/law that was broken. There are other reasons they do it this way too.

At the same time though it does tie together because hurting me was the law that was broken. I am not sure how things are where you are but all through the court system from the day we called the police, everyone was very interested in what we had to say. I do know that it is not like that for everyone and there were times that I did sort of pester the officers and the court people. I wanted to know everyday what was happening. Looking back though they were very very good at keeping me up to date. No steps were taken without talking to us first and asking us how we felt about things. He did plead out at the end but we were asked to write letters to the judge and to have anyone we wanted write to him. When we went to sentancing it was very clear from what the judge said that he had read our letters. The judge was also very careful to make sure he could always see us in the court room...meaning he did ask the lawyer to move out of the way more than once....he did ask us if there was anything we would like to say..not only the victim but her family and friends. At every stage through this whole thing I have felt like lots of people cared about us and heard us.

I know it is not like that for everyone...but I do think part of it is our job to make sure we are heard...I know a lot of people do not agree with me but for me it is part of not being the victim anymore and of being the survivor and standing up and being heard and fighting for what is right.
_________________
You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." -Eleanor Roosevelt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
tim2006
Member
Member


Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 201

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avalon, I am glad that you felt the court system worked well for you that you were heard and kept informed and everything. I dont know anything about it from that side. I was really just trying to explain how it might be that that doesnt happen for some people because of the way that the courts work. Why a sentence might seem unfair or not enough or something because the courts dont do revenge they do law. tim
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ivonne
Posting Freak
Posting Freak


Joined: 09 Jun 2004
Posts: 5874
Location: the netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree or disagree, really is a mute point. The law is the way it is.

I agree that victims/survivors need to have their voice heard, I disagree that it should be in court. I believe it's a fallacy to let revenge have it's way, both for the perpetrator and the victiim.

I believe our judicial system is there to prevent vengeance from taking over, not to act it out.

Ivonne
_________________
We dont see things as they are,
we see them as we are.
-Anas Nin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
avalon140
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 397
Location: washington state ( north of seattle )

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

even though I feel I was heard and that I was listened to I do not in any way feel that the court did any sort of "revenge" for what happened to my daughter. I do not feel that is the courts job either. A person should not expect the courts to issue revenge they should expect the courts to follow through on the punishment that has already been decided for a person who breaks a certain law.

Him going to prison and having to register is not revenge from me...a tattoo on his forhead telling the world he has sex with little girls would be revenge. I guess it would be about OUR expectations as survivors as to what happens in court and why we press charges. If we do it to get revenge we will never be satisfied...if we do it so that there are consquances for thier actions and to hopefully protect others in the future than possibly we will get more of what we expect.
_________________
You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." -Eleanor Roosevelt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
tyciol
newbie
newbie


Joined: 26 Dec 2007
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

avalon140 wrote:
Him going to prison and having to register is not revenge from me...a tattoo on his forhead telling the world he has sex with little girls would be revenge. I guess it would be about OUR expectations as survivors as to what happens in court and why we press charges. If we do it to get revenge we will never be satisfied...if we do it so that there are consquances for thier actions and to hopefully protect others in the future than possibly we will get more of what we expect.

In older societies, punishments like this were more common. Theives would have fingers chopped off, which not only marked them, but directly inconvenianced any attempts to commit the crimes in the future. Many people frequently state their desired imaginings of an obvious equivilent punishment for prisoners convicted of sex crimes.

With the proliferation of networking, technology, information available to the public and activism, while registration is still not as extensive a punishment as a forehead tattoo, I would still see it as a form of revenge, even if it doesn't sate everyone's hunger for it.

Consequences for breaking the law are very important, both to disincline people to break them, as well as to directly protect society from criminals. Imprisonment tends to serve both these purposes. While many wish to know people's histories and past crimes, others seem to have problems with the branding of criminals. For example, if a guy robbed a bank, having 'bank robber' on his forehead might make interacting with society difficult. In that case, since you can't be a member of society with that much trouble, you may as well not release them anyway and just keep them in jail, I guess the attitude is.

When a sentence ends and someone is released, while parole is sort of a transition period, often it's like the system is forgiving them, like a debt is paid, even though crime really is not about debt. Actually, having criminals exist acknowledging their mistakes, as a form of social pariah is probably not as bad as people imagine. I think the outrage directed at this is misdirected due to viewing it like an isolated situation in light of our current culture, with only one guy marked like Cain wandering the earth. In actuality, if all criminals were marked equally for their crimes, it would not be singling out that much. There would definately be a backlash in our current culture, and I think it would change how people react to others and ex-cons a lot. Currently, it is a private matter discussed between friends and possibly some employers, not something you need to mention when you go to buy peas at a conveniance store or something.

Eventually, numbers and discussions may sway society's reactions. No doubt you'll be wary of someone labeled 'thief' but if enough are walking around, you grow to accept it since many people view it as a less serious crime. Obviously the reactions will be much less relaxed when it comes to more serious crimes against humanity like rape or murder. I can't ever imagine relaxing around someone who the system judged guilty of these. It would likely lead to a LOT of vigilante justice, which is something our government legal system was created to replace, the random mob violence of the past. A large reason for this is that while crimes are collected under names, there is a range of years often rather than a fixed punishment, and the sentence is selected from within that range to suit how serious the crime is removed. It doesn't seem to be regulated on exact technicalities the same way parking tickets are. In that same way, simplifying a crime with a label like 'thief' would not reveal how much, or what, or under what situation something was stolen. People would react to their own perceptions attached to the word, without the extensive neutrality and impartiality and concern for evidence and information that the legal system would, before passing their judgment.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Bewildered
Junior Member
Junior Member


Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 91
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you were to read through the posts on this forum, you would soon realise that the abuse of children is not a crime that ends when the acts themselves have finished.

My girlfriend was beaten and raped until the age of twelve. She has no idea when the abuse began because she has never known an age when she was not having sex with her perpetrator. She only knows her sister was being raped at the age of four. Her abuser was also raping her older sister and her two brothers. They did not have a choice, their abuser did.

The mental anguish has and will remain for her and all her siblings for the rest of their lives.

Their perpetrator served three years. He is now living with a woman with six children.

I don't know a punishment to suit his crime but a forehead tattoo would at least warn others of his intentions.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ivonne
Posting Freak
Posting Freak


Joined: 09 Jun 2004
Posts: 5874
Location: the netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's impossible to know other peoples intentions.

It's good to be alert, carefull and pay attention to your kids (regardless of the circumstances) but it's harmful to be afraid to the point of dehumanizing others because of what they've done. That's what the abusers had to do in order to be able to act the way they did in the first place.

Ivonne
_________________
We dont see things as they are,
we see them as we are.
-Anas Nin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Bewildered
Junior Member
Junior Member


Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 91
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ivonne, as always I look forward to reading your posts because they always appear to have been well thought out and have sensible reasoning.

I posted because It wasn't clear to me what point tyciol was making.

My girlfriends abuser was a well-liked, personable man and was well respected in his local community yet he had a predilection for having sex with children.

After ruining the lives of five children and his wife, he was given a derogatory prison term. Upon release, he was able to restart his life and move in with another woman and her children.

Maybe he never intended to abuse another child ever again, but his new wife deserved to know about his past.

Unlike theft or other one-off opportunist crimes, his crimes lasted at least eight years, took place repeatedly nearly every day and were well planned and executed. They have a lifelong consequence for the innocents against whom the crimes were perpetrated.

I realise a tattoo on the forehead is a step too far, but stiffer sentencing and clearer identification of offenders would be a step in the right direction.

It would be interesting to get the views of survivors on a suitable punishment for their perpetrators which would be a deterrent for the abusers of the future.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ivonne
Posting Freak
Posting Freak


Joined: 09 Jun 2004
Posts: 5874
Location: the netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do believe that punishment is extremely inadequate by law. I also believe that at least a part of the problem is the way society is shaped.

Survival of the fittest, the strongest win, might is right... these are things that exist in modern western society everywhere. This breeds a civilization where the weak are despised for being weak. Which in turn makes being strong and gaining power over people is much apprecieated.

So part of what happens is that abusers feel justified because they have the power. More reliance on power and overpowering people is not going to cure what ails them.

I've had clients who have been abusers who are looking for atonement. Prison life is not a good preparation for being a healthy and well respected member of society. Without excusing their acts, (there is no excuse) we need to find a better answer than to lock them up and throw away the keys.

Things that seem to work: Teaching them about empathy and love. Teaching them about the feelings that they have incurred in the ones they have abused. I realize it sounds awefully soft and our conditioning is to be vengefull. I do believe that some form of punishment is in order. I would prefer it to be something that would actually do society some good, working on public works or something.

However the fundamental choice we have to make is: Do we just punish them, further instilling the sense that "might is right" or do we also try to teach them about the gentler side of mankinds nature?

Ivonne
_________________
We dont see things as they are,
we see them as we are.
-Anas Nin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    S&F's Forum Index -> Court/Legal Issues All times are GMT + 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Site by Flashfire Designs
Copyright 1993-2003, Survivors & Friends

Help Out
Make a Donation Order Flowers S&F Bookstore
About Us
General Info Staff Mission Statement Contact Us
Misc
Awards Web Rings