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God and religion
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Do you believe in God?
yes
65%
 65%  [ 30 ]
no
28%
 28%  [ 13 ]
a little
4%
 4%  [ 2 ]
not sure
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 46

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ivonne
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What if God really doesn't care what you do... What would you do then? Would that be different? If so how?

Ivonne
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paul
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think ther is an oeverwelmign need for MAN to believe in a higher power to have soemthing ot WORSHIP. and most veies od relgion seem to ASSUME as vengeful god who has to be APPEASEd if we do every rigt in prayer and riyual then god will not be angry.MAN NEEDS to have a explanationof or all teh bad thinhs , such as sent by GOD and MAN has to follow all teh rules just right to get fgood stuff which is not possibel. I do no tbeleiev in god but if i did i think he just inveneted everything then went away and mayeb he just drop in from tiem to time to see how it going,. like how many species we got noew, how many earthquake since he ;last look in on us. jusy a game he palying no plan for us or for him.
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Roseless
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think people pretty much believe in god so that they have something to cling to. something to blame for the good stuff and bad stuff. humans just have to have something to blame everything on becuase they can't accept that it's just that way. I believe god is just something people blame stupid things on. #*$# happens and the blame god or the devil. I dont actually think there is good and evil. It's just people who hide their bad actions and people who dont. people who get caught and people who are sneaky... kinda like a pathetic excuse for... it's just dumb. I dont mean to make anyone mad but that's what god is, an excuse and it's just pathetic. Kind of like, jews were the reason for the Black Plague. a stupid excuse...
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ivonne
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think so too...

It seems to me that a lot of people have difficulty accepting that there is no good or evil. That everything just is. I'm not sure whether this is the cause of religion, or the effect of it.

I think for the most part people have the most difficulty with accepting that they cause part of the "bad" stuff happening. They feel they should be better than they are. So they are looking for somebody to blame or somebody to forgive them. Dependent upon which choice they make there, they believe in a vengeful or forgiving God.

I think having a God is about avoiding personal responsibility.

Ivonne
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Roseless
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yup! that's a better way to say it. i think the bible is a big ol' hunk of nothing. just a book someone made up and said this is how we were created and blah, blah, blah... i mean just look at how many place claim to be where the crosses were or where jesus' remains are.... it's dumb. Bible is just a hunk of literature that became a best seller because people are just desperate enough to blame something. and i'm gonna stop right there before an angry mob shows up outside the door...too late they're there already.... the whole thing is a big ol'.... somethin... not the truth i know that... a huge excuse because people dont just wanna say, it happened because it happened... but no... they gotta point at the sky and say "god did it" Rolling Eyes
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baypoint
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Having a God is about avoiding personal responsibility"? And yet the argument against a God is that "there is no good or evil?" Somehow that sounds like "It doesn't matter what I do to you, because it's not evil, it's not good. It just is. Deal with it - because there's no higher standard I need to live up to. Life just is." - by denying that there is a higher standard to guide our conduct, that is avoiding personal resposibility.

And why shouldn't people "feel they should be better than they are"? It motivates people to improve themselves. But, if people should NOT feel that way, again there's no reason to feel bad about anything they do to others. And again, that sounds like avoiding personal responsibility.

We all know the benefits of living under authority - in a small way, it keeps everyone driving on the same side of the road. In a large way, it provides a certain standard of conduct along with a defined set of rules defining what happens when someone strays from those boundaries. Why do we feel mostly comfortable under one set of rules (say, our local or national government), but not with the idea of God? Because while our national government doesn't stipulate our morals (for the most part), the idea of a God that cares about what we do and has set certain standards for us, repulses a lot of people. It's easier to do whatever you want when there's no God.

I hope I've missed the point, or taken too large of a viewpoint; I'm reflecting on the fact that the reason we're all here on this board is that very horrible things were perpetrated against us or against the ones we love. Without a clear sense of good or evil, we excuse the abuse - "it's not bad, it's just another experience in life" (And that's where I hope I'm missing the point...) I don't think anyone here would subscribe to that view, especially in that context. As a partner, I'd be thrown off this board if I dismissed anybody's pain with that view.

It doesn't mean we can't learn from that experience, either as survivors or as partners. But it shouldn't be dismissed as "$#!^ happens..."
There IS evil. It haunts us enough to try to remedy it when we experience it.
There IS good. Whether you see it in creation, or whether you see it in people. In the microcosm of this forum, the efforts of people like Ivonne, Mae, Steve, Carter, and others, is GOOD. Their work is a fantastic effort to offset our pain. It's not the final solution. But it's good.

Does that require me to believe in God, just because people like that are so helpful? I, for one, think that something has coded an innate goodness into us. If evolution put us here, we'd be concerned solely with survival. And there's no long-term future in that, because all we're here for then is to make our little offspring as tough as possible. But if God (by whatever name you give him) put us here, helping others takes on some meaning. We won't fix everything. But we'll see that what we can't fix, Someone Else can. There's a point to improving our life, and looking to the future.
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ivonne
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are much better reasons than God to abhor the things that were done to me. And yes, it is just an experience from where I stand. There is a middle ground between letting God and good and evil guide your destiny, it's not that if we lose God, we suddenly all turn on each other. We are perfectly capable of setting rules ourselves, without intervention from some deity.

I don't believe in the innate goodness of man. I do believe that if the human race is to have a chance at survival it is going to have to learn to live together, honor and respect each other.

I don't believe evil in man either. I believe in personal responsibillity. I believe we are all inherently brothers, better yet, we are the same. The human family is one. That means if I let my bothers starve on a far away continent, I fail to take care of my own body. In the same way, an abuser who intentionally hurts others, in fact is hurting him/herself.

We as human beings, in our respective nations, have agreed upon certain rules to regulate traffic. We adhere to them (for the most part) because it is to our combined benefit to do so. To extrapolate some outside force that lays down the rules is to deny the human responsibility in this. God doesn't cause carcrashes, erratic behavior on the road causes carcrashes.

In the same way, God nor Satan can be used to guide human behavior, in my mind, that is our job. I feel we are learning and are capable of setting up guidelines of respect and honer that will work for us.
My abuser was not influenced by Satan. He is not getting away with that excuse. He is personally responsible for the pain he caused and has to find a way with his own consciense to live with that knowledge. Hopefully that will cause him to grow beyond caring more about his own pleasure than about the hurt he is causing.

And yes, I do think that humanity has got a lot to learn before we can call ourselves humane. Getting a God and becoming righteous about it isn't going to help us, I believe. In fact... and it keeps coming back to that doesn't it: More atrocities have been committed in the name of the lord than anybody elses name.

I suppose I am a survivalist... the thing that most people miss when they are speaking of survival of the fittest, is that it was meant as an explanation for what happens between species, and by natural selection. To use survival of the fittest as a way to justify genocide is backwards. Survival of the fittest also counts for humankind. If the human race is gonna survive, it's gonna have to learn about working together and respect and honor real quick. With all the lipservice to those concepts, religions haven't made much headway in promoting them...

Ivonne
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baypoint
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I did miss the point somewhat - of course we all have some personal responsibility for how we act. Blaming God or Satan for the bad things is a very large-scale way of examining things. In our own personal experience, it's not much of a valid reason.

I'll still take exception to the view that just because so many horrible things have been done in God's name, that he clearly doesn't care. I feel that God DOES care - just because somebody uses God's name does not mean they are using it correctly, especially if justifying actions that so clearly contradict God's Word. The wars, genocides, etc...no reason to think that God approves of that, regardless of whether people say they are doing it in God's name.

And don't make the mistake of extrapolating a simple illustration into a whole argument. God doesn't care one wit how we drive (unless someone feels the need to hurt others with their car) - the idea of authority was not to say that God is the ultimate authority over all of man's little rules (if that were the case, we'd be one big happy united people in practice instead of just in concept), the idea was that subjecting ourselves to authority need not stop at where mankind has posted their international borders. Moral authority is not dictated by national laws, it's within us from the very beginning. It's not well exercised by some, but that's not God's fault.

Yes, we are perfectly capable of setting rules all by ourselves, without some deity intervening. What we as mankind have demonstrated is that we are completely incapable of sticking to all those rules. Mankind is imperfect, has been for a long time, and can't make a flawless society no matter how hard they try. Obviously we haven't all turned on each other, but we're no closer to being a unified people than we were back in (insert favorite Biblical or non-Biblical event here). The most catastrophic of events hasn't taught man much. Learning to live together, honor and respect each other is the noblest of goals, and makes for some excellent people to be around. But history has shown over and over again that society as a whole won't achieve that kind of peace without some help.
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ivonne
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Society as a whole hasn't tried to go it without a deity.

I'm using your example of the highway-rules as a clear example of how, when it is in everyones interest we can make rules and by and large abide by them. Clearly we can do pretty well. In terms of trafic we regulate pretty well.

We're learning. The thing that might save us is enlightened self-interest. When we realize that it is in our own interest to save starving children (if for no other reason than that they are tomorrow's customers) that is when we will save starving children.

I don't think God cares because I don't think he/she/it exists. Simple and plain. I don't blame God for any of the things you say, because I don't believe in God. I think God, if there were such a thing, would be immaterial. We are capable of saving ourselves.

Ivonne
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carter
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...

Last edited by carter on Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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